Is Aerophobia Preventing Travel Recovery from being Successful?

Aerophobia - or Fear of Flying - prevents tens of thousands of people from getting on a plane every day. Not only that, it stops people from pursuing their dream vacation, visiting their bucket-list destination, or flying to a meeting that could change the course of their careers.

In one word, THE IMPACT of Fear of Flying goes way beyond getting on the plane. In this episode, Captain Alon Pereg explains why Fear of Flying is a 'false alarm' and how it can be addressed and 'treated' with the right supporting system.

Captain Alon is not only a pilot with more than 19000 hrs of flying under his belt, but he is also the founder of SimpliFly a full program designed to help those affected by Aerophobia to understand how the experience works and build trust so that they can travel with ease and don't have to give up on their trip of a lifetime.

For the podcast listeners, you are in for a treat! With this promo code: TBT2022-1E16D5 you can unlock the premium features of Simplifly for the next 3 months.
Just go to: www.simpliflyAPP.com and enter the promo code: TBT2022-1E16D5 go try the premium version.

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About Dolores Semeraro

Hello! I am a Hospitality and Tourism Communication Expert and Speaker with 15 years of industry experience.
For the past 20 months, I have helped tourism organizations and travel professionals restore travel confidence and restart their tourism business.
I focus on tourism marketing strategies, hospitality digital marketing and communication, and tourism innovation in every keynote, training, or coaching session I deliver across the industry.
You can learn more about me by listening to my travel recovery podcast called ‘Truth Behind Travel’ where I interview tourism industry leaders and travel experts on the core topic of Travel Recovery.

FREE RESOURCE: Download the Top 10 Travel Behaviour Trends in 2022 report: https://thetravelrecoverymethod.com/trends

S2 E48 - Is Aerophobia Preventing Travel Recovery from be Successful?
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Dolores Semeraro is an internationally recognized tourism keynote speaker and trainer who has inspired thousands of people in the tourism industry to build a stronger, more sustainable, and more resilient future of travel.

In her keynotes, Dolores shares with her audience how to develop sustainable marketing thinking through her action-oriented thought process, which observes the interconnectivity of the stages in the travel product life cycle.

By applying this process, operators in the tourism, travel, and hospitality sectors can visibly enhance the longevity of their marketing strategies, effectively rendering them more sustainable in the long term for the well-being of all stakeholders involved.

Dolores is a passionate advocate for responsible travel, sustainability, and innovation. With her signature Mediterranean warmth and straightforwardness, she encourages audiences to challenge their "Business As Usual" status and strive for the improvement of the tourism industry and the well-being of all stakeholders.

Through her decades-long experience in the industry, she has motivated hoteliers and tourism professionals to take action, enhance their communication, and create a purposeful and innovative tourism ecosystem.

She also advocates for slow travel, exemplified by her extensive travels with her husband and beloved dog in their campervan. When not chronicling ...

Transcript

Dolores Semeraro  0:07 
Picture this, I just graduated in Chinese language and I'm off to China for the first time to do an intensive language course on top of my degree that will make me even dream in the Chinese language. I was 21 years old, and I never got on a plane before in my life. So there I was, not knowing what will happen up there. How I would feel yet facing one of the most important choices of my life.

Do I get on that plane and own the course of my life? Or I let my fear of flying get the best of me and go back to my secure job to my college sweetheart, and alive that I could already see unfolding in front of me.

decisions decisions.

Okay, fast forward 22 years in a life lived fully across Asia, Africa and Europe. And I still think that that decision I made not to let my fear of flying dictate what will I do with my life was the best decision ever. So what happened on that plane you might ask? Stay with me on this episode because I brought to you a very special guest to talk about fear of flying, and how this is affecting the lives of 10s of 1000s of people around the world, particularly when it comes to travel internationally.

Are you one of them?

Well, my guest today has been a pilot for 41 years with more than 19,000 flight hours. He was a former fighter pilot flying the F 16 and is currently flying the Boeing 787. For the past 10 years, he has helped people with fear of flying all over the world. So much so that he has developed a methodology around it. One that we are going to cover on today's episode, so don't stop listening halfway through because he's giving you a special gift to access his methodology courses for free. Yes, for free. So stick around.

I am so excited and I hope you are too. So help me welcome Captain Ellen Parag.

Welcome back to the show, and welcome Alon. I'm so pleased to have you. I know I have to you have to catch flights and I believe you're connecting from Bangkok right now.

Alon Pereg  3:22 
Yes, I have to look out the window to make sure that I'm really in Bangkok because life as a pilot, sometimes is weird.

Dolores Semeraro  3:31 
Very hectic. So how did you come to be a pilot? Tell us a little bit about your story.

Alon Pereg  3:37 
I'll tell you only in a nutshell that the age of nine I believe. My mother took me to the optometrist that defined the time was a little bit short-sighted. He said, you know, Katie, I'm going to give you glasses, but it will not affect your life. You're not going to be a pilot, that's all. So at the age of nine, I knew that I was not going to be a pilot.
But then again, at the age of 19, approximately when I joined the military, they did think that I I fit to be a pilot and I started the flight crew. So I was a fighter pilot in the Israeli Air Force. I flew F 16. And when I retired from flying I joined the L L airlines in Israel. And I became a commercial pilot. Now I'm a captain of a Dreamliner 787

Dolores Semeraro  4:34 
Altogether, how many years flying?

Alon Pereg  4:37 
altogether? I graduated flight school 41 years ago. And if you accumulate all the 19 plus 1000 hours that have been in the years, you'd like to say that I stayed in there more than two years of my life.

Dolores Semeraro  4:55 
It's, you're officially the first pilot on this podcast. We're going to talk about how does it work in the aviation industry to really navigate. I wouldn't say navigate now more like flying through the pandemic, and especially the last 220 plus months that we've been talking on the podcast about what can we do to help the industry in terms of travel recovery and tourism restart.

And one of the, one of the subjects that often comes up in terms of really working on rebuilding that trust in travel, and that trust in travelers, for them to be able to feel confident and travel again and move, whether that is domestically or internationally.

If it involves flying, there is one aspect that is often under underestimated, and that is fear of flying. And today we're going to talk about a lot about this, especially because you have taken a direct interest in helping travellers overcome their fear of flying. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how did that come about? How did that start?

Alon Pereg  6:08 
It happened, I think, you could say maybe by mistake or without really intention, because I was not really aware of the fact that people can be afraid of flying. Flying is a way of living for me. But little by little people came to me. When I became a airline pilot, approximately 10 years ago, they came to me, even though I've been flying 20 years as a airline pilot, they came to me with questions. And initially I didn't really take it seriously.

But then I understood that they were really in a big fear. And I learned that people with a fear of flying sometimes, by the way offline, but with great anxiety, it is not the most spread out fear in the world. By the way, talking in public is considered to be the biggest phobia that exists. But fear of flying is very spread in the world. Approximately one out of three people suffers some kind of fear of flying, most of them of course fly, but the ones with severe flow, fear of flying, do not fly at all. So I started to understand that it was a problem. And I started to help them, you know, without the curriculum without really a programme.

And I saw that it worked. And if you want that breaking point, or when it really became a programme was a daughter of a childhood friend that was 26 years old and did not fly. And she wanted to fly to Thailand. And I did what I did, I spoke to her and I showed her some clips and explained to her and she flew to Thailand. And when she returned, by the way, she got their proposed and she's married and now she's mother. But she when she got back from Thailand, she called me and said, you know you have to do it, organise, it's not a right way to do it. One here, one there. And it fell exactly to where I felt that I needed to do.

And I wrote it all down. And I started a classroom course, back in Israel. Any trend for three years with hundreds of people going through this course, and reporting success. 88% of them reported them that they may, some of them started to fly after avoiding flights. Some of them flew but with flew before but with great anxiety and could enjoy more the travel.

Dolores Semeraro  9:00 
Well. Imagine that person going to Thailand for the first time wasn't just the first time for her to fly, and to get on a plane. But that would have been the most important trip of her life. Because if you said that she got she got engaged and then got married and got kids and the whole you've changed her life. You've changed the course of her life.

Alon Pereg  9:22 
You hit the point right in the middle because for her maybe she was it she could be proposed in another place. But let me give you another example I had in one of my courses, a young guy 29 years old, newly married and a CEO of a startup that needed to fly and couldn't fly. And he came to this course and actually he ran away on the first day of the course and he returned for the next one because he was so afraid of it.

And then after he got over it and flew with his wife for a vacation For the first time, and returned a couple of months later, I sent him a text and asked him how how things are doing. And he said, it's great, you know that my startup is growing fast. And me and my wife start now to bring it, we want to go to the next level, and bring your child and then, and I returned to do my music. I didn't know he was doing music.

But I have my band back with me, and we have performances. And it all started when I offloaded that burden that I was carrying on me. Because, you know, submitting to a phobia and not winning this is influencing many other areas of your life. And people that that think of something that is insurmountable, and find out they can they start to question, wait a minute, maybe there are other things in my life that I think that cannot happen, and really can. And other woman that went through my course, wrote to me, you know, that at the age of 40, if I can fly, maybe I will learn how to drive now.

She was avoiding driving. So yes, people are suffering. And the fact that I can influence their life is really, really a gift that I feel that I was honored with getting.

Dolores Semeraro  11:31 
It's a game-changer, let's talk about that point, specifically that burden that you felt that person was carrying. And despite the fact that in that particular case was referring to the fear of flying, it is a burden it is it is one way that we don't overcome that fear. And whatever that fear is perhaps to, you know, to take that next decision that will influence our career, or to take that decision that will make us travel internationally, or to bring the entire family on a dream vacation on Disney World, for example, to name a few. But that fear is something that influences us deeply. And it changes the way we go about our daily life. It changes the way we take daily decisions.
And I wanted to talk a little bit more in depth about how does a person manifest that fear?

Because I told you just briefly, one, one example of my very first flying flight experience. I was 22 years old. Bit late do I have to say, here is this little Italian girl flying to China for the first time to get on a plane flying directly on the other side to the other side of the world. And knowing that I was going to be on this plane for I don't know how many hours was back then. And I remember only one vivid moment during that long flight was the fact that at some point, my palms were sweating. I was overbreeding is that can you say that like I was definitely having palpitations, and it was a sin.
And back then I didn't know I was showing symptoms of fear. And nobody was there to help me. Nobody supported that that moment, I just had to sit back, breathe in, breathe out and hoping that it will go away as fast as possible. So this was my first flying experience Italy, China. So I wonder how does this fear manifests?

Alon Pereg  13:39 
It's reallysomething that you cannot really categorize because every person has different backgrounds, some of them really experienced a panic attack. And what is more important is that they are trapped inside in some kind of a vicious circle, which you avoided by really miracle in a way because they learned from this flight feeling that it was horrible. And then the coming week for the next flight is weaker than before.

So the more vulnerable so of course, they will have a worse experience. And this is a vicious circle. Some of them have some kind of panic attack. Some of them have the startle effect, they cannot go the plane, they are on the plane but they cannot move. They have many ways to express it to manifest it. There is no one type of person that is afraid of flying. Some of them are flying, some of them but all of them are scared to death.

That's very important to understand. They know almost certainly the dog going to die. So imagine yourself that you are that you know that you're going Today, so you save for well to the people you love before you fly. And you are all the time ready for it to happen. And when it didn't happen, you say okay, so that was by mistake next flight, I will die and are totally wrong. And that's what what is triggering me to continue on and on and, and helping them to, to conquer it.

Dolores Semeraro  15:25 
What do you think scares them the most?

Alon Pereg  15:29 
I ran a survey in the United States in November 2020, almost a year and a half ago. And we asked the people we had 1700 answers. By the way, we asked them, How much are you afraid of flying? It was for the general population. 58 point 5% said that they were not afraid of flying at all, which means 41 and a half percent of the population answered that they were afraid of flying to a certain extent 16% of the population were between substantial and extreme fear. And we asked them, What are you afraid of. And people mostly are afraid of weather phenomena, and mostly from what they call air pockets or turbulence, as we call them. But other weather phenomena are also some kind of fear, generating things. The other major thing the die afraid of our human errors, mostly pilot errors, and other human errors, technical malfunctions.

And since it this survey was generated during the corona virus. peak time, then many people were expressing fear from COVID affects the flying in any ways.

Dolores Semeraro  17:06 
These are the main things that people are afraid of. So weather conditions, human error, technical, technical malfunctions, and most recently, fear of catching COVID in a plane or so. Now tell me how many times did people ask you about chances of catching COVID while flying all the time

Alon Pereg  17:30 
they are asking me! And my answer is that there is a chance of catching COVID in a plane. But this is much less than catching COVID in a restaurant, or in a bus, or in any place where you have other people because the air in the plane is totally changing every two to three minutes. So it's all the time that you are breathing air from outside, which is really filtered. And without any germs and, and viruses.
So yes, you can catch because if there is somebody sitting right next to you, and that person has COVID and that person sneezes or whatever, yes, you can catch it. But this is much, much less than any other area in your life.

Dolores Semeraro  18:29 
Have you noticed fewer people flying as a result of this increase of fears almost like the last two years or so we haven't just amplified the fear of caching COVID? But along with that many other fears were sort of like reshuffled and everything else that we perhaps forgot to think about. But I've noticed how people have changed their approach to booking their next holidays. It's no longer just dictated by their desires and needs of feeling relaxed and entertained and amused and happy are actually dictated by their needs to take care of their mental health to take care of themselves because they've they've gone through a lot they've been through a lot. Do you think it's it has escalated during the pandemic or people are now perhaps noticing it more and taking it more into consideration?

Alon Pereg  19:31 
I think that fear of flying totally generally increased during the pandemic due to three main reasons. One, people did not fly for a while, and not flying is something that if you had fear before, then it will amplify and amplify. At this time it will raise again and you will go back if you were On your way to conquering your fear, then you will get back.

So the first reason for that was the lack of flying. The second reason was that generally, this pandemic raised, the let's say, the itchiness that the how people are the nervousness and amplified, all the way that you are looking at things, I think. So, one of them was the fear of flying. And the third thing I think that you meant touched it in a way is afraid of, of having COVID either on the plane or in the terminal or even, to get to be infected somewhere and to be stuck in, in a foreign country, when you cannot return to your home. These are all factors that I think created more anxiety in the general population, and definitely more with the people of the fear of flying.

Dolores Semeraro  21:13 
So if we look at gently say, fear of flying is such a big title. And I feel like we, we, I want to go into details, I want to be as factual as possible into the podcast and, and offer solutions to those that are listening, fear of flying is the condition. So let's imagine we have a before, during, and after. And what would you say based on your research and the results and, and the feedback and the people you're helping every day with their conditions of fear of flying, where would you say people need most of the help in before in the during, or in the after

Alon Pereg  21:53 
Let's talk a little bit about the mechanism that feeds and creates the fear of flying, so we can understand it more. And take an example. In our head, there is a center that is pushing the alarm, this center is analyzing the inputs.

And for example, that center sees a lion. So it says okay, the lion is a predator. And I'm prey. So I have to either fight or run away or freeze. But to have it's an emergency. Okay. And that's very good. Then there is another system in our brains that says, Well wait for a second, I see the bars and actually the forming a cage. And that lion is inside the cage. So even though this is frightening, this is not dangerous. And there is another system that says, Okay, we went and this is the memory. We were in a zoo before, and we sow lions inside cages, and nothing happened to us.

And these three systems consult. It happens all the time, by the way, when we cross the street and all the time. And they say okay, there is no need to alarm ourselves. Now people who are afraid of flying, have the first system working perfectly, because an aeroplane is a scary thing, period. But the other two systems, one that brings them relevant information. And then another one that gives them memories, good memories are not really involved in the decision-making system. And now getting back to where you are, what you were asking, what we can do is to help them with relevant information.

Anything anytime they need it. So it starts with before the flight letting them know exactly what what the facing. By the way, it should be clear, and that's something that you the listeners have to, to memorise that flying on a commercial plane is the safest way to travel period. You can look and Google the statistics that's effect.

And if you tell it again and again, then you are a part of creating this database on the minds of the people that you want them to to fly. So that's one thing give them the information, help them during the flight even if possible. Because if I'm catching little Dolores at the age of 22 when she has this panic attack, and in the plane I explained to her now the law is the nothing to be afraid of. Then she disembarked from the plane with out, having that post trauma sort of thing that will generate the vicious circle.

And later after the flight, if you are finding somebody that had a better, worse the worst day of their lives, or they had some kind of, you know, air pocket, they thought that they were going to die and you help them, decipher and that digested and understand what they had, then you help them. So there is no one question. And we have to give them a 360 degrees coverage in order to help them overcome the fear. And, and by the way, the fear of flying. And that's what I advise the people to understand. To tell themselves, this is a false alarm. That's all it's a false alarm. It is something that is very vivid in our minds.

But it's like, you know, in the hotel, I'm now in the hotel, sometimes, you know, in hotels, you have fire alarms, which are false alarms. So initially, when you have a false alarm, you start looking for the escape route. And then there is a public address system that comes on and says this is a false alarm, or this is just a drain, and then you return to your normal life. That's exactly what they have to do realise that the fear of flying is a false alarm. And, and I teach flight attendants to give this answers, tell the people, okay, you're just afraid of flying, it's perfectly okay.

Because approximately 10% of the people on the plane by the way to the true number 10% of the people on the plane, in average are afraid of the flight. And I tell them, tell the people, it's okay that you are afraid of flying, but it's just a false alarm, we have to remember, for some people, they have your phobia, as we call it, or error phobia or fear of flying is something that needs treatment, real treatment, approximately three to 5% of the people that are afraid of flying needs, physicians, doctors, sometimes kind of treatment, the other big majority can help themselves with some help from outside with knowledge, confidence, understanding, and train that system in the minds to see the lion, but see the bars out understand that there is a cage and define that this is a false alarm.

And, and I would say that if people in the industry want to support people starting to fly again, then you can be sure that a real, real big part a considerable part of your customers are avoiding flying while trying to find a way to fly as less as possible. Or we look for a way to fly in the most accommodating way. So you can increase your customer base by approaching them.

Dolores Semeraro  28:32 
And this is something we spoke about. And you and I are in a during another chat that is affecting, perhaps without actually really seeing the ultimate effect. It's affecting a lot of the recovery in the tourism industry today. Because as you were saying, if one family member does not want to fly or is afraid of flying, the entire family does not fly for that family vacation, they'll find an alternative they will find an option.

And perhaps that specific destination or that specific hotel, that book that could have you know been there, their final destination doesn't get that booking. So it seems to me it's not just the aviation industry failing to support this phobia, to sort of help travelers overcome this phobia. But it's an industry approach that needs to kind of come together to support those that are going through this. And so where are we failing as an industry to support people in terms of Aerophobia. how you call it Yes, Aerophobia.

Alon Pereg  29:40 
It's even worse than that. Because you deliver you transfer your fear of flying to your kids. So you actually populate this fear more and more. So really, it is a big problem. And we as the travel industry You have to give it some kind of response. And that's why I created SimplyFly

Dolores Semeraro  30:08 
So let's talk about SimplyFly. It's a process. It's an app in the form of an app that you've created. And I've had a chance thanks to you to have have a look around and really dive into the material, the content, the video and the support system that you build in. So tell us a little bit about it.

Alon Pereg  30:29 
It came out as a good outcome of the corona era. I landed from a flight directly to quarantine. And I had to stay at home 14 days, back in 2020. I think it was March 2020. I said, Well, that's the time to start building this entire course into an app.

And I built a mobile application. First of all is a full course I just translated it to English, and it is now in English. So it's more than two and a half hours of video course with all the information. It has also little audio clips that give you the highlights of things and some relaxation exercises. And there is a new service that is innovative, and we have launched it a couple of months ago. It's called Chat with a pilot.

If you have an internet connection, you can push a button, and one of our off-duty pilots around the world will answer you and chat with you and give you information. And in that way we address first of all, the issue of knowledge. You know exactly the facts. If you learn via the app, you learn the facts about aviation, you know, what happens if because some of our fears stem from just missing knowledge from knowing false things.

For example, people think sitting in a plane, thinking to themselves I am 12 kilometers high in a metal tube. Till now it's all correct. And if the engine fails, we fall. First of all, there is no plane with one engine, there are two separate engines that have no connection between them. And one is enough, the other is just a redundant one. If another engine fades, you can glide and land on the water on a runway. So So knowledge is power. And that's something that we give them. We also let them have information about the course of the flight so they can anticipate things and understand what they see, feel, hear, etc.

And the Talk or chat with the pilot completes the loop in helping them get the information for example, before the flight, they can check with the pilot and ask the pilot to check the weather all along the route, or even during the flight. Now, we are also cooperating with airlines. So if an airline school early and cooperates with us, for example, in airlines in Israel, then all the video course is onboard this entertainment system of the plane.

So people can go through the course of the course during the flight, we are giving their flight attendants training, so they know how to help you. So that will come to complete the 360 degrees of protection and support for the fearful fliers. And I think that is industry, we cannot really avoid treating or helping this market share, which is really important to us.

Dolores Semeraro  33:57 
So if I'm a passenger or let's say before I become a passenger, if I'm a traveler, whether I'm a leisure traveler or a business traveler, and I'm in the middle of my fear of flying and I come across the app, SimplyFly, how much time do I need to go through that content before I'm ready to fly.

Alon Pereg  34:18  
So the course itself is four hours long, which is spread into 20 clips, it's and you can download them onto your app and use it even during the flight. I would say that at least two weeks before the flight it's a good time to start looking at it. 

And then a day or two before the flight even check with the pilot and get some last directions to answer questions for example. And even during the flight, use the relaxation exercises. It's something that you can use and try.

Dolores Semeraro  34:55  
I personally had a look and I started to do dive into each of the videos. And I encourage everybody to watch. You can find the link in the show notes, where we will be putting the promo code that you can use to have exclusively for the podcast listeners, three months access, free of charge to the premium side of the app.

Alon Pereg  35:19  
We can from tomorrow morning, given airline, a code. And the day after tomorrow, the passengers can use the app, it's as simple as that. And if you are, for example, and you run a travel agency, and you want to encourage people to buy tickets, then you can give them the app for free for let's say a month, we want the industry to take off again if it's not clear,

Dolores Semeraro  35:46  
Ultimately is to help as many people as possible. And if I think of ultimately is promoting their hotels, destination tourist boards, promoting their destinations, travel agents trying to get you know those those booking back in, or even online tour operators, for example, like platforms like booking.com, or Expedia or these big platforms where people go and book their holidays, having that option that says, Well, you know, you're going to have this international flight. And before you give up on the idea of going to Thailand, for example, let's say Thailand can be any any destination depends where you are based in the world. 

Before you give up on that idea. Why don't you take a look at this, why don't you take a look at this video? Why don't you hear what these people have to say they have, they have decades of experience in the industry, they can tell you all that you need to know so that you can overcome that phobia, that fear of travelling. 

And for me, one of the reasons why I particularly enjoyed this part, this episode, today is because you are addressing a pain, it really is speaking to the pain of today's travellers, and sometimes because we are so we're so immersed and so taken with the day to day, you know tourism, you know, business as usual things that we do to promote destination to promote hotels to promote brands to get the business up and running, that we forget that ultimately, if we don't get people to travel, the this engine won't restart. 

And I'm wondering numbers on the hands. But how many people are actually not flying today, as a result of of an amplification of fears, and therefore having more pain, and more reservations from flying again from travelling. And I love the examples that you brought up about fear of flying it, I mean, flying, it's this Efest way to go from point A to point B, we build a perception of what makes us feel comfortable when we travel. So it's my perception that flying is dangerous, and I am afraid of it. 

So therefore I decide not to fly gives me the comfort that okay, I'm comfortable with my decision not to fly because otherwise, I'm uncomfortable. So what we need to we need to help travellers do not just to overcome that fear. But to get them ready to get them uncomfortable, to get them to listen to people with experience to get them to listen to people with knowledge that can help them understand how this works. We're not here to share this conversation with the listeners to say, Okay, we want more people to fly because we want to fill up the planes and we want the business back. That's not the spirit of today's conversation, the spirit of today's conversation is to help people travel better. 

And if that, if that starts with understanding how to overcome a fear that perhaps is already affecting their life choices in many other aspects that perhaps they don't, they don't even realise. Now. That's that's the aim of today's conversation. And I'm so glad that you took the time in between your your connections and flights and connecting with me from a hotel room, sharing your knowledge and your passion. 

I encourage the podcast listeners to go check the the code in the show notes. It's a promo code to access simply SimplyFly app premium for three months. So starting from the publishing of the podcast whenever you're happening to listen to that and you want to know more, don't miss this opportunity. So I think it's a remarkable initiative. I wish you all the best. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast.

Alon Pereg  39:43  
Thank you very much. Dolores, thank you for letting me spread the word, and thank you for carrying out this marvelous podcast,  thank you.

Dolores Semeraro  39:54  
Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation and many more that are I always bring on the podcast to help you navigate your journey towards travel recovery. Every episode is set to bring you tips, strategies, insights from the travel, tourism and hospitality industries. And it's free. 

So one way you could use to help me out, share this podcast and let these voices be heard by more people is to share the podcast episode on your social media. Take a screenshot, put it on your Instagram hashtag to a behind travel podcast. Or you can take the link in the show notes and share it with your friends and family and with whoever you think might need to hear this. Thank you so much. I will see you again soon. 

And as of next week, we are going to change the format of the podcast a little bit. We're going to have shorter episodes that are strictly related to hospitality marketing, travel and tourism strategies. And we're going to have longer conversations with guests on the podcast. 

So you'll have one episode per week that is a longer conversation perhaps with somebody from the industry, or an expert or anyone that wants to share their story with you. And the second week you will have instead the shorter episode with me, focusing on digital marketing strategies and how to be part and own your place in the digitalization of the travel industry. Thank you and bye for now.