Deep Travel: who does it, how it works and why you can no longer ignore it

In this episode,  Truth Behind Travel podcast host Dolores Semeraro reflects on the realities of Deep Travel and the mindset behind it with One Planet Journey Co-founder Richard Lindberg. 

Richard is a serial entrepreneur on a mission to making deep travel experiences the norm. He believes in an industry where authenticity, customisation, sustainability, immersion, and exclusivity define successful hospitality and travel. 

So, how is deep travel different from sustainable travel, responsible travel or experiential travel? Or is all one of the same? 

On this episode: 

- The definition of Deep Travel

- Who pioneers Deep Travel, the travellers or the destination?

- Who seeks Deep Travel experiences today

- High-volume destinations approach to Deep Travel

- The RTE - Return on Travel Experience of Deep Travel

- Deep Travellers: returning guests or one-offs?

- Hidden gems - could Deep Travel spoil them?

- Where does Deep Travel end.

Get in touch with Richard at One Planet Journey. 

Host of Truth Behind Travel Podcast, Dolores Semeraro is a sought-after international tourism keynote speaker and sustainable tourism marketing professional. 

Dolores actively works in the tourism and travel conference space as a keynote speaker and moderator, gracing the stages of international tourism summits and trade shows. 

As a professional keynote speaker, Dolores’ speaking topics encompass sustainability in tourism, digital marketing and how to identify today’s traveler’s needs through technology and innovation.

5 years ago, Dolores launched her podcast show named ‘Truth Behind Travel Podcast’ where she regularly interviews tourism and travel industry leaders and representatives on how to rebuild the future of travel.

www.doloressemeraro.com

dolores@doloressemeraro.com

Instagram @dolores_semeraro

LinkedIn @dolores.sem

Transcript

Dolores Semeraro: 0:01

Welcome to Truth Behind Travel Podcast, a platform for tourism, travel, and hospitality professionals and enthusiasts to share, learn, and unlearn what we need to create better tourism, protect the environment, and become better humans. I'm your host Dolores Semeraro, and every week I bring on a podcast the voices of those out there making a difference to learn the hard truth behind the world of travel and tourism, what works, and what we can collectively do better. Welcome back to Truth Behind Travel podcast. How are we doing? Summer is about to begin, at least in the northern hemisphere, which calls for more travels, holiday mode, and more travel traffic. I know it is about to be in full force. So the question is, when travelers are seeking more than just entertainment and relaxation, when they seek connection, mindfulness, and some might even say a sort of awakening. In other words, a deep travel experience. Can destinations cope with the demand when they are already busy handling the ever-growing hordes of visitors? Today on the podcast, we take a moment to reflect on the meaning of deep travel with the co-founder of One Planet Journey, Richard Lindberg. Richard is a serial entrepreneur on a mission to make deep travel experiences the norm. He believes in an industry where authenticity, sustainability, immersion, and exclusivity can define a successful hospitality and travel business. So, how is deep travel different from sustainable travel, responsible travel, or experiential travel? Or is all one of the big same? Let's hear it from Richard. Welcome back to the podcast, and welcome to season five. And welcome, Richard. Thank you for joining me on Truth Behind Travel today.

Richard Lindberg: 2:08

Thank you so much for having me.

Dolores Semeraro: 2:09

I know we're going to talk about deep travel, and this is something perhaps new to the podcast. Like it's similar to other things. We're going to get into that that with other other conversations that we had in the past, but I want to hear it from you. And before we start, I would like you to give us a little bit of an overview of your journey. How did you get to deep travel, and what what made you decide to advocate for such an important form of travel?

Richard Lindberg: 2:38

Yeah, it's a crooked road. I'll give you that from the beginning. I'm a business guy from university who never actually started working. I ended up, you know, starting my own business, which I don't call work. It's more of a lifestyle. First years out of uni, we did a tech startup. It eventually took me to a totally different path after we sold it, because I was around 2009, there was a lot of talk about sustainability and climate change and all these kind of things. And I ended up at the UN meeting in Copenhagen in 2009, and it's inspired me to to work with sustainability. Set up a nonprofit to get more university students to adopt and get into sustainability. And after a few years, I started working with sustainable finance in London. Actually, it was there I also started getting my first touch into the tourism and travel industry because we started this kind of rating review rating service for sustainability in hospitality. Right, so that went very well until the pandemic hit, and we had to close that down because we were, you know, a lot of people in the in the company. At the end of it, me, my wife, we went on this amazing long road trip in Europe during the the low season. I think it was between November and May or something like that. It was a totally different experience than anything I've had before in terms of travel, it was you know calm. We could connect with locals, and you know we were working at the same time, so it was not like just lying on the beach or anything. Although we could do that, also being from the Nordics, the temperatures were totally fine for us. Once we got back, and this was now around summer 2020-three I felt this urge to tell people about this experience. That there's another way to travel than the usual that I had done. You know, peak season travel in July to south of France and you know London and all these kind of places that I used to go to. You know, we started One Planet Journey based on that. We wanted to write ourselves. We did write all all of the articles ourselves in the beginning, but we quickly saw that it was just caught on with people because there is something you know that is happening within the industry, and I think there is a shift. And I know it is because also a lot of other people are saying it's not just me. That people want something more out of their journeys. I. That they want a higher return on their travel. It's undefined sometimes. It depends on the person, but something more meaningful, and that's what we had, and that's why it caught on. And we were getting requests from people to say, "Could we also start writing on the platform? We let them in, and it's kind of ballooned from there. So now we have writers from all over the world that are sharing their perspectives, and this is a magazine, but it's not. You know, we don't do research on places we haven't been. It's only lived experiences from people that have actually, you know, been and done the the thing they're writing about. And yeah, here we are, and I think it's a very very exciting time for for the industry. And I'm happy to be in in this space.

Dolores Semeraro: 5:38

It made me think about many of the moments that I've lived through, especially when I'm on a road trip myself, when you are on the road and experiencing travel from a completely different perspective, for example, rather than for example flying in, going to the hotel, visit the monuments, fly out. What you do on a road trip is really immersing yourself, right, in in the day-to-day vibe, the people, the the energy, observing the habits, and it almost makes you think, I can never travel in another way ever again. How did he come to you that this would then lead to the definition of deep travel.

Richard Lindberg: 6:24

What we wanted and what we felt like during the trip was like temporary locals. Let's call it right, and and that feeling of understanding or trying to understand and making some new friends and all those kind of things. The connection is, I would say, is the key word here, right? And that's something we wanted to feel. But then I came across a term called deep travel, and it spoke more to me. It was more personal, but it also spoke about the destination and what's going on there, and how the communities and that connection I'm speaking about how they perceive it, and that's something we were very mindful about. Also, in you know, because we have a community building, we get a lot of insights from really smart people as well. So it's I would say it's also a collaborative effort. It's not like I'm sitting in coming up with the definitions here in the room. It's it's a joint effort for sure, and it's developing as we talk also to clients and destinations, and I would like to say right off the bat that deep travel is a dual use methodology, right? So it's got to make sense for the traveler, but it's got to make sense for the the communities and the destination also.

Dolores Semeraro: 7:34

Who do you think finds it more difficult to, I wouldn't say adopt, but also in a way, to really immerse in this way of traveling, the destination or the travelers.

Richard Lindberg: 7:49

Oh, it's definitely the the destination because what we've seen from the start is that the travelers there's been such a tremendous resonance with travelers for this that I'm overwhelmed. But for the industry, obviously there's a whole different situation, and that's part of

what our mission is: 8:07

is to to get destinations to work and adopt some of these principles, right? Because if they do, they will have a much easier time attracting these types of travelers as well, and that's when the magic happens.

Dolores Semeraro: 8:20

So you're saying that there are travelers that don't seek deep travel connections, and there's just travelers that because you're kind of like implying that there is a kind of travelers, as you said, because it's a mindset, right?

Richard Lindberg: 8:34

Deep travel is something intentional about it. You know, we're all conditioned to travel to make travel kind of happens to us in the standard way, right? It's something. Oh, it's summer. Let's go somewhere, right? Or I have a week off or a weekend or something like that, and and you see social media. It's very standardized. Oh, see these things. Oh, you haven't been to X city if you haven't done this, this, and that. So it becomes almost like a default thing. Not everyone is a deep traveler, definitely not, and not every situation calls for deep travel, right? So we see deep travel as a spectrum. Different trip can have level different levels of depth, right? Depending on what it is you're seeking out to do, it doesn't always have to, you know, it doesn't have to be expensive, doesn't have to be year long experience, because as we speak about it, people have this automatic response that oh, how much money do I have to spend to get this kind of you know really cool experience? And that's what I always say: it's a mindset thing. It's got to be from both angles to to really you have to appreciate it, and somebody has to deliver it.

Dolores Semeraro: 9:37

I like the point you made earlier that travel kind of just happens to us in in most of most of the cases because it's it's summer, so I got my holidays, so time to travel, or someone else has already prepared a package, an itinerary, or even through social media an an idea. Of what I should be doing when I travel, so we are sort of brainwashed in a way. Whether it's from a price point of view, an experience point of view, it's almost like we we are not we're left without enough time to really comprehend and understand what is it that we we want from a travel experience, everybody is telling us what to do, where to go, how much to pay, how long to stay, and who to talk to. We got to talk to the communities. We have to support the environment. We we are bombarded with things we need to do when we travel. So there's also a little bit of an overwhelm, I think, from a traveler perspective, and I always question whether the call for something comes from the inside, comes from within. Are really people asking for it, or is again a product of media? It's something else telling us this is what we should be wanting, this is what we should be thinking, because we live in a very global world, right? We can be anywhere, everywhere, at any time, and I think that leaves very little space for reflection. And as you said, deep travel is very intentional, and it doesn't have to be long. And I want to go there because I'm currently traveling in in probably one of the one of the countries in the world where everything needs to be bigger and larger and greater, more the the country of more. I wanted to kind of reflect with you for destinations that are used to work with quantity, with big volumes. How can they approach deep travel?

Richard Lindberg: 11:39

Yeah, I mean this question is obviously so complex. What can destinations do? I think there is low-hanging fruit. Can you offer services and experiences that would cater for, for example, to a jeep traveler? Right. I would say there is a need for a discussion from the destinations together with the communities that they represent, right? They have to be involved in a much bigger way, and first determining who are we for. If that works, then you have a social license to operate. That will probably be much more long-term viable as well, and it will attract the type of traveler that we were discussing here, because they won't come to places where they feel unwelcome. You know, who are we targeting? What kind of destination do we want to be? These are hard questions that might result in saying, you know, we have to reduce volume. Instead, go for a higher quality type of tourism, where there's often also a higher margin. That's a mindset change, right? And when you're stuck in a way of operating and doing business that's been done for a long time, this this takes courage and bold decisions.

Dolores Semeraro: 12:51

Do you think that destinations that are welcoming bigger volumes of travelers are and could be could be uninterested, or maybe they just don't see the opportunity or the value in attracting deep traveler, deep travel travelers, so to speak, because they have the volume. Why would they need to do other things?

Richard Lindberg: 13:17

Well, they might have the volume, and they might not see the you know the the necessity for change immediately, but if the experience for all these volumes that come is degrading, they might have to change. You know, and the sooner you do it, the better it is. A lot of stuff. What's happening also is subtle. You know, it doesn't have to be protesting locals all the time. It can also be other stuff, like where the whole experience of coming to the city feels like amusement park, theme park. Everything is polished, no friction, you know, and you almost don't see anyone from the local environment. There's like different stages of degradation of the experience, both from a local point of view and from a traveler point of view, and as a destination, you have to map it out. Where are we here? And if I feel as a traveler that why am I coming to the city? There's nothing real about it anymore. Then I would choose another one, and they will lose my business, and and then eventually more people like myself.

Dolores Semeraro: 14:24

Do you think that returning value that you mentioned earlier it's directly related to the fact that when you, let's say, when you travel to a destination for, like let's say the first time, and you happen to find yourself into this mega massive tourism trap. You go there, do your photos, been there, done that, and you probably don't return because you've done it, you've seen it. You you come away with the with the feeling of okay, I've seen it. Like for example. Super uber busy places like Venice or like Barcelona or many other places in Spain as well because they're very popular, and instead deep travel calls for a returning visitor, a returning person to the destination.

Richard Lindberg: 15:18

Absolutely, and I I would go as far as to say that the the real depth and the real connection you build from repeat visits, and that's what deep travelers do, and they often try to find times and places within a busy city, for example, that is not busy. Repeat visits is one of the the main business reasons why I think destinations should attract this type of traveler. Deep travel is a lot about following your passions and special interests, right? If you're into Roman remains or ruins, I mean, or you're a foodie or a digital nomad, these are some of the archetypes of deep travelers. You spend money on your interests. I mean, some people travel only to go to a specific restaurant or you know for a food experience, but also because they're very passionate about these things. There are of course adjacent interests that you can also upsell. Right, there's so much opportunity here to work with these types of travel. Also, I would say because they have this mindset, they're also a bit more respectful. They're mindful of where they're coming, so you automatically avoid some of the abject behavior, if we call it like that, that we see also happening in certain places.

Dolores Semeraro: 16:23

Well, I always say that tourism behavior is a product product of habits that the destination guides, and if they don't guide good behavior or responsible behavior, it is a it is a mistake and a responsibility of the travelers just as much as it is for the destination, it's it's it's a two ways responsibility for the way I see it with my own eyes out on the ground, and also the way I I feel very strongly about. And this brings me to a point that I wanted to to touch with you about when we look at destinations that are, you know, on the mega stream, like very well-known destinations with very well-defined places to go and see and visit and experience, and then you have perhaps in the very same destination or maybe other places around the world is big places that we still dare to call hidden gems, right? And the word itself-I remember starting a keynote on it, like "Rest in peace, the hidden gem. Like, do we still have them anyway? And by the time you are, you have defined it. Oh, look, this is a hidden gem. It's no longer hidden because we are exposing it, right? I was reflecting on the depth of experience that deep travel brings along with the you know with within the journey, and in many cases these experiences are to be found in the you know within the hidden gem spectrum, not just necessarily in front of the Colosseum in Rome that you know pretty much everyone knows. So I wonder, could deep travel unnecessarily spoil hidden gems, as per se?

Richard Lindberg: 18:11

It's a question we obviously, as a magazine, and we you know publish inspiring articles from places like the ones you're describing, right? Where it's quiet, calm, and very perhaps sensitive as well in some aspects. I don't have you know a picture perfect answer for you on this because at the same time we want to inspire people. I would say though that if you employ the standard way of how tourism is done and it and attract them to these kind of hidden gems. Then you're in for a disaster. And we, I can see it already here in my country. You know, where it's become so popular now. Sudden, the last few years with trekking in the mountains up north, people don't have the experience. They don't have the right clothes. Suddenly, they're calling for helicopter rescues. They leave litter everywhere. You know, it's it's complete disaster. They're disrupting the reindeers cycles and stuff like that as well. I would say if you're inviting people or you have something that is valuable to visit, let's say a hidden gem, you have to be proactive, right? Understand what is the carrying capacity here. How how many people can we take in here before we're degrading the experience for everyone, locals and visitors at the same time? If you're gonna, you know, talk about it or have tried to at least attract the right type of traveler, then there's a bit proactive, smart strategy, but combined with hard measures like quotas or you know just shut it off if it gets too much.

Dolores Semeraro: 19:42

Yeah, that brings us back to the the point of destinations working with bigger bigger volume. They cannot rescale once you go to that kind of volume, and in certain certain destinations are lucky enough to have a to have assets. Call them like this, that don't decline over time. The experience declines, but not the assets. So, for example, you look at Venice. It's beautiful and will be beautiful, and was beautiful 20 years ago, as it is now, and as it will be for the next 1020, years or so, because the assets are there. They don't, they don't change. The experience change, and one of the experiences that is perhaps close to you in Sweden are the Northern Lights, something that was considered far and hard to reach and almost mystical, and you gotta be very lucky to see. Now it's pretty much a guaranteed thing. There are holidays that refund you the money if you don't get to see the the Northern Lights when you go there, and we got to that extent. So it's hard to rescale to scale down. We can create deep travel experiences or a deep travel approach. Yeah, let's call it approach into mega destinations. It is possible, but who is the right person to do it? Are the travelers going to seek out this type of approach, or are the destinations perhaps the private operators, perhaps the community? So, who in a in a destination that operates at bigger volume. Who can create a little space for deep travel? Do you think?

Richard Lindberg: 21:26

I would say the travelers want it. The demand is is there if if the supply comes online, right? But I think there are a lot of private tourism industry brands, you know, in all sectors that are already doing it, they attract this type of traveler. But what's lacking is perhaps a more centralized strategy, like we talked about before, determining that this is the destination we want to be. We want to have more of this, and we want it to be. This should be our mantra, you know, or what we should be famous for, they're also the one that should find the model to involve local communities in the discussion. I can't see who else would do it. It's a political decision as as well, right?

Dolores Semeraro: 22:15

In the travel and tourism industry, we play this little game very well. Are the travelers misbehaving, or are the destinations not supporting enough? And as you said before, deep travel borders with responsible travel or with experiential travel. And in the line, you know, in the spirit of the podcast, I was challenging the conversation. Let's let's go there. So if we were, where are the areas where experiential travel and deep travel align? Where are the areas where responsible travel and deep travel align? So, or where we can see the difference, for example, so that people listening to the podcast may recognize themselves, perhaps for the first time. Oh, wait a second! I'm I'm a deep travel person, or I am a deep travel institution or business. So let's give them the tools to to see themselves into deep travel. So let's let's look at these differences and similarities.

Richard Lindberg: 23:15

It's very important not to burden the traveler with extra things, and I think that's what's been done. If we now start with the responsible slash sustainable tourism angle, right? It's we can't burden the the traveler with all the world's problems at the same time, and using doom, gloom, shaming methods. I think it's contrary, and I think it's also the reason why hasn't really caught on. People say they want to book sustainably, but they don't do it. Right? I think this is a large part of the reason. Deep travel is definitely a language responsible behavior, but that's inherent in the traveler themselves. They don't need to be told to be responsible. They are responsible because if you need to be told not to take away, you know, or chip away a stone from the Colosseum, I would go out here and say you're not a deep traveler. Now, also from a sustainability angle, where we're aligned is that deep travel sees things from the local perspective. That's why I said locals first, right? So let's say the social angle of it. I think an exciting development here with regenerative travel, because it actually puts the focus on what is important from the destination and the community perspective, using their needs and desires first and foremost. Right, and so on that side, I think deep travel is aligned. But then we also try to, you know, we merge it with the traveler perspective. That's the the kind of marriage I want to see when we talk with destinations or or travel brands, and they ask us, okay, what is it we need to do to attract the deep traveler? Right. It's using a certain type of language, avoiding certain other. Words and things because they can see through it. It's marrying both the personal and the wider industry and community side. And if you look at our mission as a company, it is to create deeper connections between travelers, destinations, communities, and travel brands because we're all in this together. If we don't adopt all the the principles together, there is going to be a misalignment between what the traveler wants and what is being offered or experienced.

Dolores Semeraro: 25:35

Do you think that the traveler that goes for a deep, meaningful experience on on a journey, you know, while designing their own travel experience, comes out of it transformed, changed. You've come out changed out of your first road trip. You said I was not the one I was before. That that is a transformation after travel. So my question is: Does deep travel end during the at the travel moment, or does it continue after the travel moment?

Richard Lindberg: 26:09

It continues again. Here, I mean, it is based on your personality also a lot, but I feel that deep travel is also very reflective, right? Because if you want to increase the return on your travel experience. You've got to reflect. Okay, how did this trip go? What was good? What was bad? What can I improve? How did I feel? What was good with the destinations? Coming back to that, right? But once you have that again intentional mindset of it, the chances of being transformed and having a better experience, and choosing the right place the next time increases, and maybe you already found it, right? So, like we said, a lot of people go back to their places that do travelers, so they they found something that works for them, and I would like to emphasize this as well. We don't tell people what to do. This is not that type of thing. If you feel like this trip, it needs to be a package to travel. I don't want to think. I don't want to have to, you know, care about one single detail. Okay, great. You might need that in this stage of your life. We we don't tell anybody what to do. We don't focus on any of the negative aspects in our communications with the travelers because we want to inspire them. We want them to think and you know improve their own situation. And once they are happy and a little bit more demanding, that will also impact what the destinations and the service providers do.

Dolores Semeraro: 27:40

So you think the deep travel, the deep travel conversation, is a conversation that still needs to be nurtured in the travelers ecosystem or in the destinations ecosystem? So who needs to talk about it

Richard Lindberg: 27:52

for travelers It comes more natural. So I would, if I'm going to place my bets, I would place it in the industry. What I see with travelers is that we can enlighten them that this exists, and the way we've done it in the Deep Travel Report, which we launched last last year, is that we we took it take a look at some of the the big sectors like food, culture, nature, slow travel, solo travel, digital nomads, but but we're not saying that 100% overlap is they're not 100% deep travelers. All of these sectors, what we try to is you know make an assessment of how big of a percentage of each of these represent a deeper type of travel. The next report will go into more detail with more of our own data on this. What we want to do is to be more specific. I don't want it to be a philosophy. I want it to be a standardized term in some way to to make it easier for the industry to adopt it.

Dolores Semeraro: 28:52

If this can be a conversation starter or a conversation enhancer around deep trouble, amazing because this is what this is the spirit of this podcast is to have conversations that triggers more conversations. So, if people want to listen while listening to this episode, are triggered by what does deep travel entail? Can I do something about it? Can am I a deep traveler? And if I am, where are my Where are my people? Where is my tribe? Maybe these are the kind of reflections that I wish to inspire with this conversation today, in Travelers, and to get in touch with you, also through you know just simply taking a look at the show notes of the podcast, where people can find the contact details to get in touch with you and continue this conversation. This will be my wish for from from this episode, and for destination and destination managers that are listening to this episode and think about the type of positioning, offering, perhaps even the idea that still lingers everywhere to be. Something for everyone. I think it need we need to be a little bit more brave there in the approach in destination strategy. We cannot be as destinations. We cannot be everything for everyone. We need to choose how to best protect our environment, protect our people, support them along the way, and talk to the people who that we want to welcome in the destinations we represent. So, if anything out of this episode, I would invite destination managers to rethink about the people that that they are welcoming to their destinations. And maybe they're already welcoming deep travelers. They're just not aware because they work. They work with volume, right? They stay up at that, at that type of surface. And if you were to leave the podcast listeners with a word of wisdom from your experience in deep travel, what would that be?

Richard Lindberg: 30:55

You always want to feel like that there is a community of people like you. So, and I would say there is. You can find them on our website, of course. But there are there around you. There are service providers out there as well. And what we're trying to do is to make sure that we're speaking the same language, because then it will be easier for you to find it. Be curious. Be intentional. Reflect, and make your trip much better next time.

Dolores Semeraro: 31:22

Thank you, Richard, for being on the podcast. I think this is just has just really just scraped the surface of the conversation around deep travel. We'll certainly be in touch and bring it back to the podcast. Perhaps even with a joint podcast with some of your ambassadors. Some of let's bring in the conversation, some deep travel ambassadors, and let's let's see where that conversation leads. At the meantime, I thank you for being in the podcast today, and all the best.

Richard Lindberg: 31:50

Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to the next time.

Dolores Semeraro: 31:53

Thank you for joining me on the podcast today. So, are you a deep traveler? If so, I want to hear your story. Get in touch with me and let's talk about it. Meanwhile, my road trip across the Americas continues, and you can always take a look at where I am on my social media or on the blog of my website. Until next time, be well, my friends.